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DC Animated Universe:Articles for deletion/Template:TNSA
keep. ― Thailog 18:15, 25 February 2007 (UTC) Template:TNSA : Oppose Here are several links that acknowledge the title, including the official site. * http://www.batman-superman.com/superman/cmp/creators.html (see page title) * http://www.bcdb.com/cartoons/Warner_Bros_/Television/Superman/The_New_Superman_Adventures/index.html * http://www.animationartgallery.com/BTMNS6.html The series even had a Nintendo 64 game based on and named after it: * http://www.amazon.ca/Superman-Adventures-Official-Strategy-Guide/dp/1566868637 --BoneGnawer 21:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC) "The New Superman Adventures" ---- Was this ever an official title? I think the show was always called "Superman" or "Superman: The Animated Series". TNSA is fanon, I think, just like "Gotham Knights". Also, a second template with a different name that links to the same page seems unnecessary. ― Thailog 12:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC) :I'll have to look up the evidence, but TNSA was the name of STAS from season 2 onward, airing alternately in the same timeslot as TNBA on Kids WB. There was even a new title sequence derived from clips of both shows, and the music was a blending of the two themes. I'll see if I can find a clip. I believe the official title for both series was The New Batman Superman Adventures (similar to the 1960s The Superman/Aquaman Hour of Adventure), though I believe it is generally taken to be The New Batman Adventures and The New Superman Adventures. --BoneGnawer 14:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC) ::Yes, The New Batman Superman Adventures was the official title but only from season 3 onward. The clip can be seen on Batman The Animated Series, Volume Four, but not on Superman's DVD set. Therefore, The New Superman Adventures is inaccurate and should be removed. We could, however, include "season" levels on Appearances Lists. ― Thailog 15:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC) ::Warner Home Video's failure to include the proper opening sequence on the DVDs doesn't invalidate the fact that the show aired under that title. --BoneGnawer 15:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC) :::Which title? "The New Superman Adventures" or "The New Batman Superman Adventures"? I didn't say that the show didn't air with the latter title, but it certainly wasn't from season 2 onward. Batman only appeared in mid-season 2. It was only after "Little Girl Lost" that and were paired together with the new opening. ― Thailog 15:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC) ::::Please don't add this template to any article until this dispute is resolved. Like I said, The New Superman Adventures is an alternate title to S:TAS. As such, it seems pretty unnecessary and redundant to me to add a heading that links to the same article. Besides, I can't find any source that acknowledges TNSA as a non-fanon title. ― Thailog 20:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC) :::::See sources above. It is not an alternate title, it is applied to the episodes that ran concurrently with TNBA. The Big Cartoon Database link above lists those episodes. --BoneGnawer 21:01, 23 February 2007 (UTC) ::::Ok, I must say it's very discourteous and inconsiderate of you to be making changes as if you already won the argument. ::::You (this site) are stating that The New Superman Adventures is an official title that refers to season 2 onward, when was paired with only after the crossover in "World's Finest" (mid-season 2). And only then could it have gained a "new" title. ::::#The only official source you provided was the WB official site, which in a site dedicated to The New Batman / Superman Adventures (which I already admitted to be an official title, but only for an anthology series — not a standalone show), so naturally it will refer to Superman multimedia as TNSA, just like it refers to Batman's as TNBA. However, notice that that page contains videos from the first season too, which was not known as "TNSA"; ::::#*'Addendum:' just to add on to the topic of "reliable sources", take a look at Bizarro's bio http://www.batman-superman.com/superman/cmp/bizzaro.html ::::#All the other sites are either fan sites http://www.animationartgallery.com/BTMNS6.html or an unofficial "episodes database" http://www.bcdb.com/cartoons/Warner_Bros_/Television/Superman/The_New_Superman_Adventures/index.html founded in 1998 (long mid-season 2), which makes it's cataloging very questionable and unreliable; ::::#Unlike The Adventures of Batman & Robin, this title is never seen on-screen, so unless we have an official source which confirms that the title refers from episode X to episode Z, we must regard every other source as dubious; ::::#You won't find any mention of this title on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Batman-Superman_Adventures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_The_Animated_Series. ::::Frankly, the heading is just redundant, and the usage of this title is arguable. It's the same show and we can't even be sure of when it started to use that title. ― Thailog 22:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC) :::::Ok, several points here: #Official proof of my position has been presented. There is no winning, just adherence to the facts. #'The title ''The New Superman Adventures is official', since it is found at batman-superman.com. #The remaining question is: ''Which episodes does it apply to? #You state: The New Batman Adventures was paired with Superman: The Animated Series only after the crossover in "World's Finest" (mid-season 2). If you have an official source for this, I'll buy it, and we'll consider World's Finest to be the first TNSA episode. In absence of an official reference, I went with The Big Cartoon Database. #This title is not seen on screen, however, the title The New Batman Superman Adventures coupled with the title The New Batman Adventures is a strong implication of the title The New Superman Adventures. This implication is proven by the batman-superman.com mention of the title, as well as the derivative products such as the Nintendo 64 game. #Wikipedia is no more of an official resource than this wiki, I do not accept anything written there as proof of anything. I could pop over there right now and change the article to read "This series was properly known as Skippy the Flying Tree. :::::--BoneGnawer 22:44, 23 February 2007 (UTC) 1. No, you have not provided official proof. There's a big difference from the sponsor and distributor of the show (WB) and the actual team that produced the show. So far, I see no source involved in the show acknowledging the title you endorse. *There is no winning, right, but your conduct indicates that you think your counterargument settled this discussion, and started implementing changes without giving the other party a chance to rebut, which is unacceptable. 2. batman-superman.com is an official site for the one-hour event known as The New Batman Superman Adventures, but that does not make the site reliable, as verified by the biography I provided (and there are more), and it certainly does not mean its information is attuned with the DC Animated Universe. :"You state: The New Batman Adventures was paired with Superman: The Animated Series only after the crossover in "World's Finest" (mid-season 2). If you have an official source for this, I'll buy it" 3. I had taped episodes of Superman (all subsequent to World's Finest) which had the TNBSA intro, but after I got the DVDs, I disposed of them. 4. The Big Cartoon Database is no more official or reliable than TV.com http://www.tv.com/superman/show/1524/summary.html which happens to list the show as merely Superman with no reference to the other title. :"The New Batman Adventures is a strong implication of the title The New Superman Adventures." 5. Implication is not undeniable fact, which is what we need to support such claims and changes. Nor is any site unaffiliated with the DCAU that promotes and sells their products. Naming games and books The New Superman Adventures may very well be a marketing strategy, seeing as plain Superman is not remotely attractive. :"Wikipedia is no more of an official resource than this wiki, I do not accept anything written there as proof of anything." 6. Just like I won't accept anything from any site other than those directly associated with the production team involved in the show. ― Thailog 23:44, 23 February 2007 (UTC) :"Just like I won't accept anything from any site other than those directly associated with the production team involved in the show." That's an obtuse argument. WB owns, produces and distributes the DCAU. Therefore batman-superman.com, as a WB site dedicated to a DCAU subject, is an official reference. You can find errors in some of the information there and prove those errors exist by providing overriding proof in additional official resources. Your argument is analogous to stating that we can't accept information about Star Trek from startrek.com because Gene Roddenberry didn't write the website. The title is implied on screen and confirmed by batman-superman.com. Being an official site, you cannot discount their information without contradictory references from additional official sources. Without any other official information to refute the title, we must accept the batman-superman.com source. --BoneGnawer 00:06, 24 February 2007 (UTC) :It seems you are choosing only the facts that conveniently support your position, and leaving out others that rebut it. ::"batman-superman.com, as a WB site dedicated to a DCAU subject" :WB hired and paid Bruce Timm to make the show; the bio that I used as an example shows how detached the company (represented by the site) is from the actual product it "owns, produces and distributes", which means that something like using the title disputed here is very questionable in the light of this evidence. Are you telling me that because the WB placed "Hunter's Moon" between "Question Authority" and "Flashpoint" on the DVD set makes it the official episode order? WB makes mistakes (and already made plenty) because they do not consult with the creators of the show to sell their products (otherwise mistakes like episodes orders and subtitles would be avoided). And my argument is that the use of this title may very well be another mistake. :Did you see Bruce Timm's interview on Superman's vol. 3? He says that WB wanted him to give Supergirl different powers than Superman's because technically she's not a kryptonian (on the DCAU). Bruce told them "yeah sure" and purposely ignored that request. This only serves to show how the WB is not entirely in synch with the universe created by their employees, which makes any information they provide fallible and unquestionable. Therefore, it cannot be regarded as an official DCAU source ― just a WB official source. ::"The title is implied on screen and confirmed by batman-superman.com" :Again, implication is not statement. I'm also not saying the title is a fabrication. I'm saying that due to the lack of official and undeniable DCAU evidence that support the use of this title from season 2 onward, we have reasonable doubt to leave things as they were (before you changed them in the middle of this argument), and thus avoiding discrepancies such as implicating that this is an adopted and official title for the show — when so far you have only proved the existence of the title, but not its usage. The New Superman Adventures should link to and be nothing more than an alternate title. :We obviously need a third opinion. ― Thailog 00:55, 24 February 2007 (UTC) ---- There seems to be a bunch of debates here. Let's see: * The term "TNSA" is a fan-based shorthand for the Superman part of The New Batman-Superman Adventures that I took from the DC Animated Forum two years ago. It's used elsewhere to differentiate the multi-seasoned STAS (including batman-superman.com). I'm not saying it was a good idea, but that's where it's from (as was Gotham Knights, which I personally found it too similar to "The New __ Adventures"). * There is a production difference between Seasons 1 and 2 of STAS, albeit not nearly as big as the Batman difference. Since both STAS Season 1 and "TNSA" used the same character designs and were only different superficially ("TNSA" focused on other areas of the DC world, whereas STAS S1 just dealt mainly with Superman mythos). I likined the difference to that of BTAS (S1/2) and "The Adventures of Batman & Robin," which should redirect in my opinion. * It might be a good idea to mark those eps that aired under The New Batman Superman Adventures title separately, at least with regards to Supermanish episodes. Hmm... I don't have a particular problem with this template (it seems to be a valid enough name), but it should be noted, if ever, that "TNSA" is an alternate name only beginning in Season 2 (whichever part).--Tim Thomason 04:55, 24 February 2007 (UTC) :That's my point to begin with. This title is alternate and we should not separate the episodes lists since we have no evidence to which episodes it refers to. I had no problem with how it was done before (the name redirecting to ). My reason for nominating this template for deletion was because it liked to , and since it was an alternate title, it seemed sort of redundant. But now it links to a separate article, which is even worse, imo. ― Thailog 11:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC) ---------- I like the horizontal line as a delimiter :) Ok, I'm willing to back out on some of this, along with some article reversions, as long as we acknowledge a few points. * Revert back to the version that included in that article. * goes back to being a redirect to * The title The New Superman Adventures is acknowledged and described in the article as: "The title for Superman episodes airing under the title The New Batman Superman Adventures as acknowledged by WB." * Episodes following World's Finest are noted as , within the episode list (using a sub-heading) on the article. I believe this format existed previously, but the subheading was placed too early in the episode list. The placement of the subheading can be changed if better evidence of a starting point for that title is discovered. * In Appearances sections of articles, the template is used as a heading for the episodes described above. Does this sound like a fair solution given the facts presented? --BoneGnawer 19:56, 24 February 2007 (UTC) ---------- It sounds great to me. ― Thailog 20:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC) ::I mis-typed. The last point above should read: ::* In ''Appearances sections of articles, the template is used as a heading for the episodes described above. --BoneGnawer 20:47, 24 February 2007 (UTC) :::Ah. Then I oppose. Since we can't be sure of which episodes "TNSA" refers too it seems risky and unnecessary to include the subheading on the Appearances list. links to (which already contains the episode list and the explanation for the other title) and we agreed that it's more an alternate title derived from The New Batman-Superman Adventures than an official title for the season. :::I'd like for everyone to speak their mind, though. I don't want this debate to go endlessly. I'll conform to what the majority decides. ― Thailog 20:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC) ::Point in case: Mr. Mxyzptlk's list would appear like: Appearances * "Mxyzpixilated" * "Little Big Head Man" ::Is it necessary? It doesn't clarify any further than if it had just the first sub-heading. It may be preferable to add "Season (X)" sub-headings than one that's in fact an alternate fan title that links to the same article. ― Thailog 21:05, 24 February 2007 (UTC) :::The overall goal here seems to be striving for accuracy. However, neither option seems more accurate than the other; both have facets that provide compelling enough arguments for or against the given side. To be honest, I'd prefer to remove titles like "TNBA" or "TNSA", because (to me) they create more confusion than help. But by doing so, we'd be removing aspects of importance. :::However, the aforementioned compromise seems to be a very good course of action. By designating the episodes, it seems we'll make mention of the name changes (which is reasonably important), but we can keep everything streamlined into one article. If is still linking to , which clarifies the distinctions and correlations between the two, then no real harm is caused; we're simply keeping the airing specifics accurate in the individual articles without creating extra and additional pages within the wiki. - NakedSamurai 01:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC) :::Thank you NakedSamurai. That's the point I was unsuccessfully trying to make. Thailog, I believe our major point of disagreement is that you see The New Superman Adventures as a fan title, whereas I am convinced that it is official. We've both already given our reasons, so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. We do agree that we aren't 100% sure where the title begins to apply, however, we can extrapolate that info by applying it to episodes with an airdate following the first episode of The New Batman Adventures. --BoneGnawer 17:38, 25 February 2007 (UTC) ---- :::Ok, we'll leave things as they are then. Episodes that aired after "World's Finest" will be marked with until we find official evidence proving the contrary. ― Thailog 17:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)